Backing Down to Cowards?
There is a dominant conservative outlook: These terrorists are cowards who we cannot appease. It's amazing that such a transparently ridiculous mythos has dominated American discussion.
It is patently obvious that many terrorists aren't cowards - they perform suicide bombings, sacrificing their lives for their cause. This doesn't justify their ends or means, but it's hard to say that someone like that isn't courageous, unless "courageous" just becomes another propaganda term that ascribes only to us.
If they're not, they're as cowardly as those who perform pinpoint bombing campaigns that kill 20,000-100,000 lives, and the country of those cowards that says that 1000+ casualties is far too high and a quagmire like Vietnam, and that those troops should be protected even better than they are.
Arguing that giving into terrorism encourages it assumes that people are simple incentive/disincentive processors like Skinner's pigeons. It's a mechanistic outlook that ignores the true sources and the passion behind terrorism. Mind you, this is an empirical argument. Here's an article from a conservative magazine that disproves it. http://amconmag.com/2005_07_18/article.html
In any respect, saying that "giving into" terrorism by adopting the policies they propose is a massive irrelevancy if those demands were the right thing to do. One would do the right thing even if terrorists provided the impetus for it to be done. So when Middle Eastern terrorists ask for economic development or point to American occupation, they're right.
No one on the Left I've seen JUST proposes that we attempt negotiations; they say that real law enforcement should be done to bring people to justice. That provides all the disincentives one needs. Rather than saying, "Instead of giving into terrorists, we will bomb hundreds of thousands of innocents to death.", which doesn't stop terrorists (because that's not the intent) nor does it make one seem especially magnanimous, leftists propose saying "We will bring any criminals, including our own, to justice. And any demands or proposals made by these criminals that are legitimate we will institute in the hope that that reduces their base of support as well as for independent reasons.", which seems far more effective and just.
Does one not negotiate in a war even if the other side bombed civilians? This is an especially important thing to note if your side did it too. I should not have to belabor the fact that the US war on terror is a terrorist war.
It is patently obvious that many terrorists aren't cowards - they perform suicide bombings, sacrificing their lives for their cause. This doesn't justify their ends or means, but it's hard to say that someone like that isn't courageous, unless "courageous" just becomes another propaganda term that ascribes only to us.
If they're not, they're as cowardly as those who perform pinpoint bombing campaigns that kill 20,000-100,000 lives, and the country of those cowards that says that 1000+ casualties is far too high and a quagmire like Vietnam, and that those troops should be protected even better than they are.
Arguing that giving into terrorism encourages it assumes that people are simple incentive/disincentive processors like Skinner's pigeons. It's a mechanistic outlook that ignores the true sources and the passion behind terrorism. Mind you, this is an empirical argument. Here's an article from a conservative magazine that disproves it. http://amconmag.com/2005_07_18/article.html
In any respect, saying that "giving into" terrorism by adopting the policies they propose is a massive irrelevancy if those demands were the right thing to do. One would do the right thing even if terrorists provided the impetus for it to be done. So when Middle Eastern terrorists ask for economic development or point to American occupation, they're right.
No one on the Left I've seen JUST proposes that we attempt negotiations; they say that real law enforcement should be done to bring people to justice. That provides all the disincentives one needs. Rather than saying, "Instead of giving into terrorists, we will bomb hundreds of thousands of innocents to death.", which doesn't stop terrorists (because that's not the intent) nor does it make one seem especially magnanimous, leftists propose saying "We will bring any criminals, including our own, to justice. And any demands or proposals made by these criminals that are legitimate we will institute in the hope that that reduces their base of support as well as for independent reasons.", which seems far more effective and just.
Does one not negotiate in a war even if the other side bombed civilians? This is an especially important thing to note if your side did it too. I should not have to belabor the fact that the US war on terror is a terrorist war.
posted by Frederic Christie at 8:57 AM
12 Comments:
I think you are possibly the most boring person I've ever read. Dude. Quit contemplating. Get to the living part.
Dude, what the fuck are you talking about? For one thing, I haven't posted in what must be more than two weeks. I spend quite a bit of my time with friends, at jobs, with family, in activism, listening to music and playing video games, etc. You say this with literally zero knowledge of my personal life. If you don't like my subject matter, fine, don't read, but don't purport to know anything about me.
Who the hell elected you God? Why isn't thinking and talking about valuable political issues (by the way, the money that I and probably you contribute is enabling these atrocities, so just "living" is in fact massive complicity with crimes - you can't be neutral on a moving train) and philosophy life? What is? Getting wasted at crappy parties?
Obviously you don't know me either. I think you are more intelligent than all your words put together. Especially 'fuck'. That negates all other comments in one fell swoop! I just personally think that blogging is a way a person can have a soap-box monologue. In other words, a bore. By the way,what activism? Shaking cardboard signs in front of the mayor's office in your town?
You also must be monitoring the site, since you answered so quickly. You must want dialogue. I'm giving it to you.
I'm actually one of those darn middle of the road people. When the war first started I was all for it. Now I tire of it. I want it over. I want my friends and family to come home. That's all I care about. Have you ever travelled outside of BFE? Have you seen it 'over there'? I have. Up close and personal. I made light of my comments previously and I didn't mean to throw you for a loop. I don't profess to be a Mensa candidate, and I never will be. I just teach my kids not to hit. I teach them to ignore media and people like you to think for themselves. We all know when it's wrong. We feel it.
It's all a big conspiracy. I'd rather live in this one than anywhere else though.
"Obviously you don't know me either. I think you are more intelligent than all your words put together. Especially 'fuck'. That negates all other comments in one fell swoop!"
Says who? Tim Wise frequently uses swear words, both in commentary and in his books. This is an ad hom attack, whether you like to see it or not: it looks at an attribute of the arguing entity and not the argument.
Not to mention that 'dude' is in a similar class of words for many.
'I just personally think that blogging is a way a person can
have a soap-box monologue.'
That's fantastic. But if you notice, I'm one of the few who tries to make it a DIALOGUE, by openly stating that my blog is a free speech zone wherein virtually all dialogue is allowed, and I respond to comments scrupulously point by point. In any respect, if you don't like bloggers, don't read blogs. You're not likely to get very far antagonizing people, I'm afraid to say.
"In other words, a bore. By the way, what activism? Shaking cardboard signs in front of the mayor's office in your town?"
That and many other things, but again, you have no idea who I am, so you don't know. I could be an armed Montanan revolutionary fighting the government inbetween blogs.
I've done forums on conscientious objection and the draft, marches, speeches, tabling, fought alongside UC Davis employees for better wages and benefits during their strike...
"You also must be monitoring the site, since you answered so quickly. You must want dialogue. I'm giving it to you."
Thank you. Too bad it's not very valuable dialogue, though I am responding to your comments anyways since I respect my readers.
"I'm actually one of those darn middle of the road people. When the war first started I was all for it. Now I tire of it."
You're entitled to your opinions. I was publicly predicting that 100,000+ civilians would die, that no WMDs would be found (and if any were there most be would be looted), and that the country would turn into a terrorist haven. All of my predictions came true. And yet I still get attacked for naivete by rightists who were wrong on every score. Funny country, huh?
"I want it over. I want my friends and family to come home. That's
all I care about."
I think we should also care about the innocent victims we've killed, but yes, this is a totally understandable and laudable sentiment.
"Have you ever travelled outside of BFE? Have you seen it 'over there'? I have. Up close and personal. I made light of my comments previously and I didn't mean to throw you for a loop."
You didn't. I haven't been to Iraq, no. I've been all over America and in Canada, but that's been the extent of my travel experience.
"I don't profess to be a Mensa candidate, and I never will be."
You write effectively enough.
"I just teach my kids not to hit. I teach them to ignore media and people like you to think for themselves."
Well, let me offer the caveat, though I agree with the sentiment.
Thinking for one's self is not only laudable, but a practical duty and responsibility, especially in a reasonably democratic society. And ignoring our corporate media is a fantastic idea.
But that doesn't mean one tunes out one's ears to alternative opinions or doesn't listen or give people the time to explain positions. It means that one accepts an argument based not on authority or popularity or convention, but simply on the substantive logic of the argument. My positions on things have changed when I discovered new evidence: I had a major revelation regarding racism in this country last year, for example.
"We all know when it's wrong. We feel it."
Indeed. The American people know when they're being fed garbage, as poll after poll indicates. But they also are hopeless, I think, and this is entirely the fault of people like me who have not built the institutions and the culture to appeal to the working class.
"It's all a big conspiracy. I'd rather live in this one than anywhere else though."
This is one of the freest countries on the planet. I refuse to move from it just because another neo-con stole a position. I will instead fight harder.
THAT IS AWESOME! Are you at work and doing this too? I am too, but it's so rare, that I'm amazed when other people do it too.
I digress.
I lived in a rosy world. I am told that if I live my life according to the bible, I would be better person for it. If it were only that easy right? I don't fool myself into thinking that no one idea or person is the only way. I know it's not. Most people I work or 'play' with have different lifestyles I don't agree with but my life would not be as good as it is without knowing them. Now with your comments I have something to take away. As for Tim Wise, you got me. I'll have to look him up.
Your resume so to speak, of activism is interesting. Are you a professor? A field worker? A college professor's assistant? I would say you're around 50 or 55, but you said you played video games and I don't picture someone that age playing Gamebox. Maybe you are on summer break. Ah.... summer. I haven't had a vacation in months.
Though I am not backtracking, I did say you're boring probably because I'm not interested in what you have to say. There probably is PLENTY of people that are, so I appreciate your attention to me. I found your blog through some other site, I think on CNN. I started reading and just got bored. That's all. You're diatribe surprised me.
Have a good summer and be sure you take a gift to your teacher this semester.
They deserve it!
"THAT IS AWESOME! Are you at work and doing this too? I am too, but it's so rare, that I'm amazed when other people do it too.
I digress."
Yeah, I like to post at work.
"I lived in a rosy world. I am told that if I live my life according to the bible, I would be better person for it. If it were only that easy right?"
Well, many good things are in the Bible. A good friend of mine, Douglass Truth, once said to me "Just be nice". It's amazing how far you can get on just truisms.
"I don't fool myself into thinking that no one idea or person is the only way. I know it's not."
I have a post about diversity that's very much in line with that notion.
"Most people I work or 'play' with have different lifestyles I don't agree with but my life would not be as good as it is without knowing them."
A very good summary of a respect for diversity.
"Now with your comments I have something to take away. As for Tim Wise, you got me. I'll have to look him up."
Tim Wise is a white anti-racist. The best book I've read of his is White Like Me. It talks about white privilege and how it both materially benefits but also harms in the final analysis white people.
"Your resume so to speak, of activism is interesting. Are you a professor? A field worker? A college professor's assistant? I would say you're around 50 or 55, but you said you played video games and I don't picture someone that age playing Gamebox."
I'm 19. I'm currently a student at UC Davis. I wish I was a TA - they get a sweet paycheck. ;)
"Maybe you are on summer break. Ah.... summer. I haven't had a vacation in months."
Well, my summer break has been looking for jobs and working, but I manage to get my share of fun in.
"Though I am not backtracking, I did say you're boring probably because I'm not interested in what you have to say. There probably is PLENTY of people that are, so I appreciate your attention to me. I found your blog through some other site, I think on CNN. I started reading and just got bored. That's all. You're diatribe surprised me.
Have a good summer and be sure you take a gift to your teacher this semester.
They deserve it!"
Indeed they do. I'd say that many of my articles will in fact appeal to you. I try to treat things in an in-depth matter but accessibly, with a lot of examples and down-to-earth language and evidence and external links. I hate people who seem to be determined to confuse their reader.
19! And so much on your young shoulders! I don't mean that in a condescending way, but at 19 I was too busy doing bong loads. I'm twenty years your senior. You sound so much like my older brother who is actually 51. He is a massage therapist and he designs gardens for parks. He is so intelligent and contemplates so much on the demise of our society and country that he isn't a happy person. And people aren't happy around him. I hope that isn't you. That's what I mean about 'get to the living'. You are growing in your community and that's great. Include your family. I hope you are close with them too. Believe me, at times that's all you have.
You make me laugh. Really. That's what I want to hear from a blogger. Gut feeling. Not a synopsis of what they heard in class that day. Everyone is full of BS.
"19! And so much on your young shoulders! I don't mean that in a condescending way, but at 19 I was too busy doing bong loads. "
Trust me: Not mutually exclusive. ;)
A lot of intelligent people forget that all intelligence can really do is see the facts of the world. The hopes and dreams we have are things we must form for ourselves. It is up to us to choose the risks and the course of action. Bakunin talks about this in God and State. He says that a society ruled by savants (scientists and specialists) would be onerous not least because people have the right to make their own decisions. He argues that those of us with special skills, whether that be a car mechanic or a scientist, should propose plans, discuss evidence, etc., but leave ultimate ratification to those affected by the decision. I agree.
One can believe the hopes are very small or very large. But I phrase it the way Chomsky does: as a sort of Pascal's wager. If I commit myself to believing a better world is possible and acting on that belief, the chance that it will be true is much higher than if I do nothing. To use a somewhat overplayed cliche, "Whether you think you can or can't, you're right."
Among my obligations, I feel, are to friends and family, and I cherish those deeply. Too often activists like myself burn far too many bridges unnecessarily and very quickly find their emotional support network drained. Whatever it is about the Left, we have a very hard time dealing with burnout.
I try not to regurgitate what I hear: why don't people just take the class then? When I do comment, I do so because I feel I have something to bring to the discussion. Otherwise I simply point people elsewhere.
Your head is so full of stuff! I think the only book I've quoted from is the Bathroom Reader, and I probably MISquoted it. I used to live with someone that took a humanities class, and there were quotes from Sarte and Nietzche and Kante coming from him all the time. There are admirable traits in philosphers and writers, but that still isn't thinking for yourself. It just shows that you read alot. Or listen alot, as the case may be. Because I'm not book educated, it's my turn to say, 'Dude what the fuck are you talking about?'
Right. People oftentimes use literature as a bludgeon. But I try to use it to show that there are other folks saying this stuff. This is particularly vital when discussing empirical matters. I might be a homeless bum talking about things that came in through my teeth fillings. With documentation, citing other folks, etc., one is able to gain some plausibility: it shouldn't lead another to accept the claims immediately, but to grant it a bit of plausibility.
I use songs. Bless the beasts and the children
For in this world they have no voice
They have no choice
Bless the beasts and the children
For the world can never be
The world they see
Light their way
When the darkness surrounds them
Give them love
Let it shine all around them
Bless the beasts and the children
Give them shelter from a storm
Keep them safe
Keep them warm
Light their way
When the darkness surrounds them
Give them love
Let it shine all around them
Bless the beasts and the children
Give them shelter from a storm
Keep them safe
Keep them warm
The children
The children
(The Carpenters) OR
Purple Rain
I never meant 2 cause u any sorrow
I never meant 2 cause u any pain
I only wanted 2 one time see u laughing
I only wanted 2 see u laughing in the purple rain
Purple rain Purple rain
Purple rain Purple rain
Purple rain Purple rain
I only wanted 2 see u bathing in the purple rain
I never wanted 2 be your weekend lover
I only wanted 2 be some kind of friend
Baby I could never steal u from another
It's such a shame our friendship had 2 end
Purple rain Purple rain
Purple rain Purple rain
Purple rain Purple rain
I only wanted 2 see u underneath the purple rain
Honey I know, I know, I know times are changing
It's time we all reach out 4 something new
That means u 2
U say u want a leader
But u can't seem 2 make up your mind
I think u better close it
And let me guide u 2 the purple rain
Purple rain Purple rain
Purple rain Purple rain
If you know what I'm singing about up here
C'mon raise your hand
Purple rain Purple rain
I only want 2 see u, only want 2 see u
In the purple rain
(Prince)
Silly I know. Just trying to lighten you up.
Thank you. ;_)
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